Mark O'Hare

[00:00:00] Speaker A: More music, better mental health. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Only on IPL Radio. [00:00:07] Speaker C: That's right. You're listening to IPL Radio and it's Mish at Good Vibrations with Mish. I've got a studio of wonderful people in here. And I'll go around the table. [00:00:15] Speaker B: River. [00:00:16] Speaker C: We have River. River's just got such a sexy voice. [00:00:19] Speaker B: Lana. [00:00:19] Speaker C: Lana. And I've got a great guest in here. It's Mark o' Hare from sfv, which is Stopping Family Violence and Positive Place. Thank you for being here. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Thank you for inviting me in. [00:00:30] Speaker C: It's been like we've been trying to set this up since December last year, right? [00:00:34] Speaker A: Yes. [00:00:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Because we met at. We did a Christmas drinks with Paul Farrelly. [00:00:39] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:00:40] Speaker C: And I literally probably met you for about 30 seconds and then I had to leave. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. [00:00:46] Speaker C: And then we've been trying to set this up since. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Yep. It's a great 30 seconds. [00:00:49] Speaker C: It was a great. That's what they all say. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Okay. [00:00:54] Speaker C: Yeah, you got that one. All right. So. So thank you so much for coming in and I appreciate it that you finally come in for. I know you're a very, very busy man and you've come from Vic Parks. I appreciate that. Now, where do we start? Do we do want to go down? Do you want to talk about your two businesses or do you have a personal story you'd like to discuss or. I'm going to leave it up to you because this is your. This is your time. Where do you want to go with this? [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah, either or. I guess, I suppose. I guess. Could I be older? Just talk a little bit about myself? [00:01:25] Speaker C: Yeah, why not? Absolutely. Please. I would love to hear that. [00:01:28] Speaker A: That's okay. Yeah. So I did social work. So social work is my background. Almost 20 years ago now. I probably need to sort of add on a year or two a few times. [00:01:40] Speaker C: Just like 20 years. Just like 20. Yeah. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So I did social work. And that really, I guess certainly introduced me into the work of counseling. [00:01:49] Speaker C: Okay. [00:01:50] Speaker A: And very quickly I worked in areas for. Really counseling in. For clients through child protection or real kind of social work. Traditional roles might been in hospital or. And then I worked a lot with those that are in prison and coming out of prison on parole and on different community based orders. I actually worked in that area for a good solid 10 years. Really. Really in that area for. [00:02:18] Speaker B: For. [00:02:19] Speaker A: For clients that are. That were really kind of within the justice system, actually. [00:02:23] Speaker C: Okay. All right. [00:02:24] Speaker A: But what I, what I, what I realized and recognized is that there are obviously so many people that do not go through that system and you know, [00:02:38] Speaker C: need support, they get lost. Do they get. We'll see if they don't. They either get lost in the system if they're in the system or they get lost because they don't even get into the system. Is that what you're saying? That's right, yeah. [00:02:48] Speaker A: And you know, we know that, you know, with mental health, one of the, one of the huge things is that, you know, reaching out of actually talking of actually who do people go to and you know, you know, and if people aren't in the system, you know, it becomes very difficult. You know, you add on layers of stigma or what that means. If I reach out. [00:03:11] Speaker C: That's right. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Think of me. And so I was looking around and probably about eight years ago to when I was thinking about positive place and the business, et cetera and I really. The work that I was in with government at the time, there were services for those staff to be able to reach out. [00:03:33] Speaker C: Okay. [00:03:34] Speaker A: External service for those staff to be reach out. What I noticed is that with small businesses or medium businesses, there wasn't that service for staff to be able to reach out. [00:03:43] Speaker C: Okay. [00:03:43] Speaker A: So I just kind of recognize that [00:03:45] Speaker C: I suppose there was a gap as [00:03:46] Speaker A: a bit of a gap. [00:03:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:47] Speaker A: That there are so many people that actually really could do with just talking. [00:03:54] Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. [00:03:55] Speaker A: That is maybe not related to them or doesn't, you know, them on a personal level. So they can just reach out and a non judgmental person could, could sit down and have a conversation. [00:04:05] Speaker C: You know, some people just like to just. They just need to. They don't necessarily need you to say anything. They just want to be able to tell their story without any judgment whatsoever. And no, you don't need to give an advice. You just want. They just want to be heard. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:20] Speaker C: Is that what you, you do? [00:04:21] Speaker A: Pretty much. And you know, I found out pretty quickly that there's, you know, a lot of people have not really. Ever experienced counseling. [00:04:30] Speaker C: No. [00:04:31] Speaker A: Again, there's a stigma on it. Definitely, definitely seeing somebody that means I'm [00:04:37] Speaker C: gonna be lying on a couch and you know. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. [00:04:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:41] Speaker A: So. So yeah, Supposite Place was born from really providing an opportunity for businesses to, you know, not only their staff to have support, but the business owners to have a support and to be able to reach out really at any time. The things that might be impacting on them. Yeah, that might be happening at work, but to be honest, most of the time it's not. [00:05:02] Speaker C: I was going to ask that because my husband's fifo and he also has this. A place that he can ring for, for assistance if he needs any mental health assistance. But. And there's things we've been going through recently and I've been saying to him, you really should ring them. But he said, but it's not work related. I said, I don't think it matters, it's work related and, and. But there is a stigma. He's worried that going to find out, it's going to go to the bosses, they're going to find out. Is it very confidential? [00:05:31] Speaker A: It is confidential. And you know the service that you're talking about sounds like an employee assistance program. [00:05:37] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the one, yeah. [00:05:38] Speaker A: So hundred percent. And I recommend that there are people listening to, to really reach out to them. So these are, these are professionals that are. That are in those positions to really support staff, really. [00:05:50] Speaker C: And it's confidential. It can't go any further than what they're listening to. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Confidential. [00:05:54] Speaker C: Do they have to write, do they write reports? Anything going to be written down, really? [00:05:58] Speaker A: No, no. So it certainly doesn't get back to the management. So what I recognized when I was in a government organisation was that that certainly has its place and certainly would recommend employees to utilise that as a resource to talk about whatever might be impacting them. For myself, a positive place, I just go that step further. So I go into businesses, I run workshops with the whole team. I'll go walk away from the office with staff. So, for example, I call it a walk and talk. Meet a staff member or a business owner and we should go for a walk. And a good example was yesterday, a dad reached out an employee, an employer, and he's really struggling at the moment with one of his children, one of his teenage children who's been diagnosed with adhd and him, his partner, really, really struggling with, you know, parenting, with the behavioral stuff, blaming themselves. [00:07:07] Speaker C: Definitely talking about. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Now they're starting to argue with each other. [00:07:11] Speaker C: Oh, right. It's your fault. Like it's your fault. It must be you. It must be. Yeah. [00:07:15] Speaker A: All that stuff impacting on. Oh, no, now it's not got anything to do with the workplace. Nothing. [00:07:20] Speaker C: No, no. [00:07:22] Speaker A: Nothing to do with the place. But really important and of course that's going to impact on him being able to do the best job. [00:07:31] Speaker C: Yeah, of course, yeah. [00:07:32] Speaker A: Just, you know, be the best partner, be the best dad. Yeah, you know, a lot of pressure, [00:07:36] Speaker C: A lot of pressure. [00:07:37] Speaker A: A lot of pressure. So. So, yeah, so positive place is just providing that opportunity for. [00:07:43] Speaker C: That's brilliant. What I see. Is that type of thing would be offered to white collar. Do you work with people on the floor, for example? Let's say FIFO again, because this is the area that I know they tend to offer things like this to white collar worker. But the people on the floor and getting dirty always sort of thought of last. And they're the ones that are working, you know, working really hard physically, mentally. So do you work with. Is it just work white collar that you work with? [00:08:17] Speaker A: Nurse, any. [00:08:18] Speaker C: Anything. [00:08:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And. And a couple of things that I really want to emphasize here is that it is the whole team. [00:08:25] Speaker C: Oh, okay. Right. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And the business owner, the manager needs to be on board that it is for the whole team. So I go in and do workshops for the whole team. I reach out individually to everybody. [00:08:35] Speaker C: Good. [00:08:37] Speaker A: You know, like little videos for people. [00:08:38] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. [00:08:40] Speaker A: You know, and it might be, you know, somebody might not reach out for six months or a year. And an example just got a. A message in the week from a staff member saying, hey, you're apparently the guy that I can reach out and talk to, you know, and got back and we caught up actually just this morning and had a. [00:08:57] Speaker C: That's awesome. Yeah. So it's very inclusive then. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Incredibly. [00:09:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that's good. That's really good. That's really good. [00:09:03] Speaker A: And in fact, that's a large part of the workshops is to support that inclusivity that you need to work white collar or when you talk about particular people or whatever. Etc, Etc. Often people might. Often people look through their lenses and they think everybody else looks through their lenses. [00:09:20] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. [00:09:22] Speaker A: And so this perspective taking that we are all different and to really value differences, really value inclusivity and really just that. I don't know, it sounds corny, but really from a real kind of a human standpoint that we are all equally worthwhile no matter what's happened. [00:09:42] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's really good. I just want to go back to your. Because you've been in this for a long time. Did you study in this area? [00:09:49] Speaker A: Yep. So social work. [00:09:50] Speaker C: You did social work studies. Okay. Was that something you did from. Straight from school? [00:09:54] Speaker A: No, actually, I'm getting a bit deep now. Yeah, go let's. The deep dive. Yeah. No, I was 20, 25 when I went over here. [00:10:04] Speaker C: Wow. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:05] Speaker C: So you were what. Can I ask what you did before that? [00:10:08] Speaker A: Yep, I was. I was a stripper. No, couldn't help it. [00:10:12] Speaker C: Sorry. [00:10:13] Speaker A: No, it was actually a completely different life as a veterinary nurse. [00:10:17] Speaker C: No. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Really? Yeah. [00:10:18] Speaker C: Gosh, that is one extreme to another. But it is caring. It's still helping people and animals. Yeah, yeah, hugely. [00:10:24] Speaker A: And actually, you know, that's a good point, really is picking up that. You know, I think there's this kind of. This image of. Of the veterinary world being really happy, of being puppies, being amazing, being. But actually there's a lot of sadness. [00:10:37] Speaker C: Absolutely, Absolutely. [00:10:40] Speaker A: And, you know, pets can be and often are, you know, one of the key family members. [00:10:47] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:10:49] Speaker A: About trauma. [00:10:50] Speaker C: Heartbreaking. [00:10:51] Speaker A: You know, really kind of plays a huge part in people's lives with that. And so. So actually, I saw a lot of people coming in very unhappy, so they [00:10:58] Speaker C: needed the help rather than the animal itself. [00:11:02] Speaker A: I think there was a part of me that really kind of started to evolve to. Wanted to connect more to the humans. [00:11:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:10] Speaker C: That's awesome. That's awesome. Good for you. [00:11:13] Speaker A: It's a good point. [00:11:14] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Good for you. So you've gone from animals to the worst animals on the earth, which is what's easier. Animals can't talk back at you, but they can bite. [00:11:29] Speaker A: They can bite, but depends how. How philosophically we're talking about, too. Right. [00:11:36] Speaker C: Yeah, true that. And they can bite. Nasty. [00:11:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:38] Speaker C: Nasty. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Look, I don't. [00:11:41] Speaker C: It's. [00:11:41] Speaker A: It's a. That's a really tough question. You know, I think, you know, at the end of the day. Yeah. I. I feel more connected to the. Certainly the work that I'm doing. [00:11:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker A: But, you know, give me an animal. [00:11:54] Speaker C: And because you've worked. So you worked in the prison system before, that would be. That would be hard. [00:12:02] Speaker A: It was hard. And, you know, certainly hearing some really, really, you know, tough stories. [00:12:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:11] Speaker A: And often working with people that at a stage of life that might not want to help. [00:12:17] Speaker C: Okay. [00:12:18] Speaker A: You know, not. Not really recognize the impact behaviors are having, you know, on others, even though they're sitting in prison. [00:12:25] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:26] Speaker A: The families are destroyed. You know, it can still be this kind of level of resistance of if I truly accept that what I've done, then I truly have to accept with what comes with that. [00:12:37] Speaker C: Okay. [00:12:38] Speaker A: So. But shifting to a positive piece are really, really incredibly rewarding. [00:12:44] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:12:44] Speaker A: You know, people going through different journeys and coming out the other side. Definitely gas walk alongside them. [00:12:52] Speaker C: Absolutely. I'm a support worker as well, so that's what I do is for work. So the reward is definitely more rewarding than the dollar itself. I don't do it for the dollar. I do it for the reward. In the end, it's just amazing feeling. I taught a totally blind kid to swim, and it was just the best thing I've ever done in my life. The reward was huge. Huge. It was just brilliant. Just brilliant. So, yeah, I do understand that. So now you. So you talk to people about their. Their issues or the things that they're going through. Who do you have to talk to? [00:13:24] Speaker A: That's a. That's another good question. You know, I've got, I've got friends, you know, with my position, with my work. There is clinical supervision. So I do see somebody. [00:13:35] Speaker C: Okay, good. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Professionally myself. [00:13:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:37] Speaker A: On a regular basis. And that's for exactly that. You know, what am I taking on? What do I think I may have done? Well and not so well. So that's a kind of a formal process. But, you know, it's really important for me to really recognize those early, early signs, whether it's burnout or impact on my mental health, and I guess in no way perfect. But I've tried to be as much as attuned to those early warnings. [00:14:03] Speaker C: Okay, good. Yeah. [00:14:04] Speaker A: Is slipping a little bit. [00:14:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:06] Speaker A: And that might be little things like I'm watching Netflix in bed, you know. [00:14:11] Speaker C: Okay. [00:14:12] Speaker A: A lot more than I did before. [00:14:13] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [00:14:15] Speaker A: Before I go to sleep. [00:14:16] Speaker C: Okay, I'll go. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Hang on a minute. [00:14:18] Speaker C: This is a chance. Something's not. Yeah, that's good. That's really good. That's really good. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Things are the early pieces before. Before it gets to a point of. [00:14:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm an empathic. Is it Empathic? Is that the right word? So I, I empath, I take on everyone's hurt worry and I find that really hard to cut that off. And that's something that I'm having to deal with and having to learn how to do, particularly as a support worker. It can be quite difficult because I'll go home and worry about that person, which I shouldn't be doing. Yeah, that. So I would. I need to learn that. But you probably learn that through your studies anyway. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But I guess you'd probably be able to reflect on your early warning signs when you're starting to go, I'm trying. [00:15:04] Speaker C: Yeah. I can more now as I get older. I think it's easier because I do suffer from anxiety and depression anyway. So I'm learning to. To know those triggers and to know where I am dropping. Whereas probably even 10 years ago I. I wasn't able to do so. But yeah, it does get easier as you get older. I just wish I'd knew stuff now that I, you know, I should have known when I was 20. It would have been so much easier. Life would have Been easier and confirm. [00:15:34] Speaker B: It doesn't help knowing these things sometimes [00:15:36] Speaker C: when you're in the middle of it, doesn't it? [00:15:37] Speaker B: I've been told for years that I'm like way like really self aware and all that kind of stuff. Which means you don't get support. [00:15:43] Speaker C: Oh. Because I think you're, you're okay. [00:15:45] Speaker B: I was like, oh, you seem to have such good insight. And it's like, well, yeah, but I need help. You know, like you can be on the verge of death and they'll be like, well, you seem to have it, you know, sort of head screwed on. It's like, well, obviously I don't because I'm sitting here with you, but have [00:16:00] Speaker C: you actually physically asked for help? Oh, have you ever. Have you? [00:16:04] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been in the mental health system since I was 12. [00:16:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. [00:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:11] Speaker C: And yeah, and you've obviously, you struggled with, with that and still do. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Yeah, not so much these days. Like, I think being in recovery is a huge step. Like, especially being in residential rehab. Like, I actually figured out how to do the human thing a lot better. [00:16:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:31] Speaker C: But you, you do a lot of training as well. You get a lot of lessons, a lot of education. [00:16:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:36] Speaker C: Which is obviously extremely beneficial. Beneficial to you. And I think then you would learn your triggers. You're learning your triggers, you're learning those times. Oh, hang on. I'm not actually feeling the best today. In fact, you've come in here and said, look, I'm not feeling the best today. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm a lot more vocal about like, I'm not sleeping, what I need. Like, I set myself like, as to what my needs are and like, and I can tell, like, like you said with the early warning signs. Like, I, like, I know I'm personally, like, I've got all these good things happening, but I'm also not traveling that well in terms of self care and looking after myself and all that. So I can, Yeah, I can see that that can easily snowball if I'm not careful. [00:17:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:10] Speaker B: So like I've got to kind of rein it in sometime soon. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:13] Speaker C: Okay. [00:17:13] Speaker B: That's why, you know, like, yeah, like, [00:17:16] Speaker C: but because you're, you're clean going through rehab, you, you're clearing your head anyway, so there's things about hygiene and stuff like that you probably wouldn't even thought about when you're using your drugs or something like that, where you're now clearer and that this is something I should be doing. [00:17:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:35] Speaker C: Is that, is that what, is that real? [00:17:36] Speaker B: Like I mean, like, there's been a lot of times in my life where I've had like. I know, you know, especially I used to be insomniac, so I know a lot about like sleep hygiene and sleep patterns and all that kind of stuff, but like actually doing them. Oh, it's a lot easier to actually, like, my conscience is a lot louder in recovery. [00:17:52] Speaker C: Okay. [00:17:53] Speaker B: If that makes sense. Yeah, like. Yeah, like it's like one thing, like I've known, you know, how to look after myself better for a long time and I've done it for periods of my life, but consistently doing it, it's something that I'm trying to get a handle on. That's. I think the key to actually having a functional and full life is to actually look after yourself first and foremost. [00:18:12] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah, we wanted to learn that. Definitely, definitely. So, Mark, we've. So you're doing that. That's positive, positive place. The other one that you've got is the sfv which is Stopping Family Violence. This is something that I don't have any background in this whatsoever. Can you clarify or give us some background on what this is? How did it start? Why did it start? Go for it. [00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. So sfv, or Stopping Family Violence, is the peak body in Western Australia for perpetrator response work. So what that means is that Stop and Fully Violence is not necessarily a service provider, so not necessarily running the programs themselves, but actually partnering with organisations that work in the area for violence. So that might be police or Child Protection or Department of justice or Health or Mental Health, etc. And so when I talk about work in the early family domestic violence, yes, it might be specifically around family domestic violence, but also all the other organisations that work with families that might intersect in some way with family. So somebody might be using substances and go to a substance abuse program, but actually they may also be perpetrating family versus violence or they may also be experiencing family violence domestic violence. So all those that, although those organizations are not specialist organizations around family domestic violence, they usually have conversations with men, women, everybody really around. Yeah. Potentially family domestic violence. So health. So hospital is a good example that, you know, people are going to hospital for many, many different reasons and then many people who are going there that may also be experiencing family domestic violence and also many people that may be going there that are also herpetating. [00:20:11] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:20:12] Speaker A: So how can those services have what we call really partnering, organize partnering conversations with those that are experiencing family domestic violence and how can they support those that are choosing to use the violence to, to shift some of their attitudes, shift some of their beliefs and promote some accountability for their behavior. [00:20:36] Speaker C: Very delicate area. [00:20:38] Speaker A: It is a very delicate area. Yeah. And one of the key themes is for stopping family violence is to really, really focus in on the cause of the harm. And that might seem really obvious in this space, but actually what often happens in family domestic violence is those that are exposed experiencing the family domestic violence get actually the spotlight put on them to actually create safety for themselves and for their children. And you know, an example might be. Let me go back a bit. So really. So to shift society's expectations or perceptions around family domestic violence. So it might be that. Let me think of an example. So you might have conversations around a water cooler or in the office or in a party, and you might have had conversation to somebody and you're telling them about somebody that's experiencing family domestic violence. Say it's a woman that's experiencing family domestic violence in this case. Right. So you're telling this person that she's experienced and you're talking about the experience that she's having. She's got children. And more often than not, what comes back is, why doesn't she leave? [00:21:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:49] Speaker A: Or if I, if I was in that situation, I would have left. [00:21:51] Speaker C: That's the first thing. Yeah. Right. [00:21:53] Speaker A: But very rarely what comes back is why doesn't he stop? [00:21:56] Speaker C: Oh, okay, yeah, good point. Yeah. [00:21:59] Speaker A: So this real shift in the narrative, really we need to be shifting to. Because actually if you go to that language straight away of why doesn't he stop? You start talking about the person's behaviors and once. And it might be that, you know, he's think called coercively controlling. It might be that he takes the car. It might be that he threatens to harm because that he does this thing called love bobbing, saying that he won't do it again. If you, you know, I promise you won't do this again. It was a one off. [00:22:25] Speaker C: So all these, what did you call that? Love bobbing? [00:22:27] Speaker A: Love bombing. [00:22:28] Speaker C: Oh, love bombing. [00:22:29] Speaker A: Love bombing. [00:22:30] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. [00:22:31] Speaker A: So actually when you start to talk about the person that's choosing the violence and all those behaviors, actually, then you go back to, oh, why didn't you leave? Well, it's pretty obvious, actually why she leave because of all those behaviors. And so really kind of gathering a better understanding of family domestic violence. The whole purpose for somebody that's perpetrating family domestic violence is to, is to stop the person from leaving. [00:22:54] Speaker C: Okay. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Is to force the person to stay. [00:22:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:58] Speaker A: And so we have these two Differences, you know, societal kind of expectation, like, why don't you leave? [00:23:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:05] Speaker A: But actually, the whole purpose of that person perpetrating is to stop the person from leaving. [00:23:09] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. [00:23:10] Speaker A: And somebody describes family domestic violence often as more like kidnapping than a series of violent events. [00:23:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:17] Speaker A: And if you describe it as kidnapping, you straight away think, would you ever, ever ask a kidnappee, why didn't you leave? [00:23:24] Speaker C: Yeah. You can't. Yeah. [00:23:27] Speaker A: Why didn't you leave? It seems ludicrous. Right? [00:23:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:29] Speaker A: But we asked somebody who's trapped in a family, domestic perpetrator, why don't you leave? [00:23:35] Speaker C: That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, that's a really good one. [00:23:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I asked my mum, Like, I had a lot of trouble with that as a kid. Like, I grew up in a pretty violent home myself. So, like, that was on that experience of the first, like, 13. Well, most. My. Most of my young life until I was an adult because my brother continued it after we left my dad. And, like, that's something I really struggle with because, like, you don't. Like, kids don't understand that. They think. It's like, I. I remember when I was. I don't remember this instance. My mom told me about it a few years later, but apparently when I was like seven or eight, like, mum. My mum and dad had this massive fight and mom went to walk the dogs and I, like, followed her to the park and I was just walking where they were just walking in silence. Like, when she told me about it, it kind of jogged my memory. But, like, apparently I just, like, out of the blue just asked her. I was like, why don't you get a divorce? And like, I'm the youngest in the family, so, like, that was a pretty, like. Yeah, like, jarring, jarring thing for her, apparently. And like, yeah, like, I always struggle with that. Like, why, why don't we just go, like. But, like, Mum always had the thing of, like, you know, like, she never wanted to go on sandaling. She never wanted to do all that kind of stuff. Like, she was always working, like, two, three jobs or like, all that kind of stuff. So. Yeah, but like, I was, I guess, didn't understand, like, what. When you're a kid, all you think is, oh, my mom's never here and I'm getting beat up all the time. You know what I mean? [00:24:56] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:24:56] Speaker B: So, like, it's hard. It's hard to have. Like, I always, as I got older, I got the compassion and understanding that, like, you know, of the situation. And, like, I'm. I'M a lot closer with my mum now, but, like, for a long time there it was. Yeah. Like, I think even. [00:25:09] Speaker C: Did you blame her? [00:25:11] Speaker B: Not really. [00:25:12] Speaker C: For working all those hours and leaving [00:25:14] Speaker B: you a little bit for them. For the work, yeah. But not for this. Not for the situation. Like, I guess maybe in that, like, petulant child kind of way. You think, like, why'd you pick him? [00:25:22] Speaker C: Yeah, okay. [00:25:23] Speaker B: You know. [00:25:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:24] Speaker B: But, like, my dad is a master manipulator and he puts on a really good front. He's, like. Was always, like, very involved in the community and all that kind of work. Putting. Putting his best foot forward in any other space other than the family. [00:25:36] Speaker C: Narcissist, aren't they? [00:25:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Massively narcissistic, manipulative kind of person. So. Yeah. And I guess because, like, I cut contact with my dad after we moved away from him, he still followed us to our new house and, like, stalked my mum from work and would always barge into our house and stuff. But I didn't actively have contact with him since I was, like, 13 and. But, like, because my mom was there and I was still living with Mum, like, I didn't have, like. I think all the anger and stuff that come from growing up in that kind of environment and the fact that it continued with my brother and stuff, like, I didn't have anywhere to direct it. [00:26:11] Speaker C: Okay. [00:26:11] Speaker B: And, like, I think because mom had also been in the kind of violent situation for so long, like, she'd become, like, very. She thought she was always very passive. She didn't know how to, like, stand up to that kind of. [00:26:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Like, behavior and stuff, you know, like. And, like. Especially with my brother would always be like, oh, you know, like, that's my son. You know, like. And the worst of it, he was very similar to my dad. He would do the worst of it when. [00:26:34] Speaker C: When she was. [00:26:35] Speaker B: When no one was around to see it. So, like, I'd say and be like, no, you're overreacting. You're being too dramatic. So. Wow. Obviously had a lot of bitterness around that kind of stuff because it's very. [00:26:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Invalidating and all that. So. [00:26:48] Speaker C: Wow. [00:26:49] Speaker B: I just. I just. That's when I started, like. Like living out of home and then catch up and stuff, because it was [00:26:53] Speaker C: just like, well, that's the only way. [00:26:56] Speaker B: No one's listening to this. [00:26:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:57] Speaker B: Like, no one's. [00:26:58] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:00] Speaker C: Wow, that's interesting. [00:27:02] Speaker B: But, yeah, I. I get the. Yeah, that's a. It's a good shift to try and focus. It is because perpetrator because, like, yeah, it's, you know, like saying, why don't you leave him? Doesn't. Doesn't exactly, like, solve the issue because it probably just means they're going to find someone else. [00:27:19] Speaker C: That's very interesting. [00:27:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:21] Speaker C: I want to know, we. With family violence, how much is religion involved? Yeah, I think cultural religion. [00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah. What you're touching on there, I guess, you know, factors that provide opportunities for those that perpetrate family domestic violence to use it to their advantage to further depress their partner. [00:27:47] Speaker C: Correct. Yeah. So. [00:27:49] Speaker A: And these are, you know, I guess there's a word intersectionalities, which is these multiple forms of oppression that can be used to further oppress. [00:28:00] Speaker C: Okay. All right. [00:28:02] Speaker A: And so religion, certainly, or spirituality, and how do they use that to, you know, maybe stop their partner from leaving or stop their partner from disclosing. And, you know, an example of that might be, you know, often with religion, there's a huge community. [00:28:17] Speaker C: That's correct. Yeah. Right. [00:28:19] Speaker A: And that's a huge life. And if that's impacted, then that's a huge impact on the family. And one example a survivor shared was that a partner, the perpetrator had compromising photographs, Photographs of her, and threatened to send those photographs to the church group. [00:28:42] Speaker C: Oh, no. If she ever said anything. Wow. Oh, wow. [00:28:47] Speaker A: Or to leave. And so I guess there's an example of using religion as a real powerful tool that he didn't need to lay a hand on her. [00:28:56] Speaker C: No. But that threat, that was enough. Yeah. Wow. [00:29:00] Speaker A: So, you know, what you're touching on there, I think, is really powerful. [00:29:03] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. [00:29:03] Speaker A: How is somebody using whether it's yet spirituality or religion? And if we don't look at those factors, then we will go to. Why don't you leave? [00:29:14] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:29:17] Speaker A: Why don't you leave? But actually there's a reason she can't. [00:29:20] Speaker C: Because. [00:29:21] Speaker A: Yeah, they would know why she. [00:29:22] Speaker C: And she could never tell anybody the reason why she couldn't leave. Yeah. Wow. That's really interesting to look at it from that point of view. Because media shows the victim but never shows the perpetrator or the spotlight isn't on the perpetrator. It's always on the victim. [00:29:39] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. [00:29:39] Speaker C: Wow. [00:29:40] Speaker A: There's often. Yeah, that's a really good point. There's often more emphasis placed on the victim than there is on the perpetrator. [00:29:46] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, rightly so. You know, there should also be, you know, a spotlight on the. On the victim. But we never look at it from. Or I've never had to look at it from the purpose. I can't even say that the word. You can say it. [00:30:01] Speaker A: The perpetrator. [00:30:01] Speaker C: Perpetrator point of view, because. Yeah, exactly. If they leave, like you were saying, Lana, someone else is just going to fill that gap and it's just going to continue and continue and continue. They're going to have kids and they'll continue and continue. Continue. Wow. Yeah, that's scary. [00:30:16] Speaker A: It is scary. And I guess what you're touching on there is really, we need to challenge this kind of myth statement that separation creates safety. You know, like, you just shared there, even though, you know you moved out, doesn't mean that you were necessarily safer. Yeah. [00:30:29] Speaker B: Like within a week, like, he. He would be waiting out in the car park where Mum works and stuff and like, follow her home. So. And every time we moved house, he would find out within a couple of weeks. Even though I think he had sporadic contact with my brother and sister and never really, like, had that information, he would just. [00:30:48] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's very interesting. [00:30:51] Speaker A: Important to. To. To know to this point that, you know, women are at the. At the most risk of homicide actually at the time of leaving, really. At the most risk. [00:31:04] Speaker C: Wow. [00:31:05] Speaker A: So again, we have this. Why don't you leave when actually the statistics and the research clearly shows that actually a time of leaving is. Can be the most dangerous time. [00:31:13] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. Yeah. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Living with somebody who's choosing to abuse. [00:31:17] Speaker C: Wow. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Do you guys work with police as well? Because, like, I know, like, I've got quite a few people in my life that have grown up in similar environments to me and, like, pretty widespread throughout all our experiences is that police weren't particularly helpful in any way, shape or form. Like, I'm. One of my earliest memories of, like, a violent situation in my home would have been when we still lived in Sydney and I would have been about four or five years old. And I remember, like, my dad threatening my mum with a belt and stuff. And then she called the police. I think that was the first time she'd called the police. And they. Neither of my parents really spoke much English at this point still. So she called the police. They came to the house and my dad answered the door and like, he spoke to them for about 30 seconds. I could. I remember standing there and seeing them through the gap in the chain. [00:32:09] Speaker C: Wow. [00:32:10] Speaker B: And like. Yeah. And like, spoke to them for about 30 seconds. They didn't ask my mom any questions. They didn't do anything about it. And like, from that experience, like, we. Mum's always had a thing of Just like never, never called the place, never, you know, because it's not, it's not a, it's not a help they don't like the system isn't there to help people that way. Like that's not what it's there for. Like and that's something I've heard like different kind of experiences around that like throughout a lot of people that I know in my life that have been in similar situations. Like that's why there's a lot of I guess disdain for police in I guess like lower socio economic kind of areas. [00:32:51] Speaker C: I think a lot of people too would be nervous about ringing the police because the neighbors are going to find out something's going on. I can't do that. We could talk about this for hours. [00:33:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:04] Speaker C: And it's definitely something that I would like to be more educated on. If someone out there that's listening now is in a domestic violence situation, what would be the suggestion that they should take? [00:33:21] Speaker A: There's a number of support numbers. There's the women's DV helpline, there's the men's DV helpline. There's a national, national number, 1-800-Respect. [00:33:40] Speaker C: What about for a person who has that, that male figure that's very controlling and will know that that phone call has been made from their phone. How can they ring without being known or knowing that they've rung that number? Do you know what I mean? [00:33:55] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. [00:33:57] Speaker C: What would they do in that case? [00:33:58] Speaker A: And you know, I guess it's very individual. [00:34:03] Speaker C: Oh yeah, sure, sure. For sure. Family and friends would have to be involved. [00:34:09] Speaker A: It might be somebody else that might be able to support. But you know, I always, you know, kind of want to put it out there that those are experiencing family domestic violence. We need to also trust that they are experts in managing their own safety and often they have been for a long time. [00:34:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:30] Speaker A: And what I encourage, you know, both sides actually. Those that might be experiencing it, but also those that might be hearing as well. There's a lot of stigma. There's a lot of kind of like. And I just picked up what you were saying in regards to your daddy was, you know, the token within the community, other people thought even great, etc. And, and what that means then if somebody was going to reach out, if I was going to reach out, what, how they might believed her or not in that space. So I really want to put it out there. We always need to believe people when they do say yeah, good, experiencing this and experience that. That's the number One good. We need to believe people that are going to disclose this. [00:35:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:11] Speaker A: And the number two is that, you know, yes, people might have a negative experience from time with services but that doesn't necessarily mean that going to be like that. And so really encourage still to really use the services. [00:35:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I agree with that. Yeah. It does come down to the respect. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:29] Speaker A: That's challenging and for good reason as well. [00:35:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's amazing you could remember that at such a young age, Lana. [00:35:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's one of my earliest memories. [00:35:37] Speaker C: That's interesting. We have to finish there. Mark. This has gone so quickly. If. If anyone wanted to contact you, do we. Is there any way who would need to ring you or contact you? What type of people, businesses etc? [00:35:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Yep. So you know, across. If it's Positive Place, really any business, you know, I can't recommend it enough for people just to reach out. And That's Mark. Positive Place.com willing to provide a service for the staff and for themselves actually business owners to talk in this space. [00:36:11] Speaker C: Yep. [00:36:11] Speaker A: If it's related to family domestic violence, it's adminfv.org Brilliant. [00:36:19] Speaker C: Brilliant. That's awesome. Every time someone comes in here, I learn more and I love it. It's just educating and learning about these sort of things because they're not involved in my life. But we need to know that this sort of stuff happens because if someone was next to me and they needed help, I would have a better understanding on how to help them. [00:36:39] Speaker A: Even if you just say, why don't you leave? If you don't. Sorry. [00:36:41] Speaker C: If you don't, don't say, why don't you leave. [00:36:43] Speaker A: Yeah, that itself. [00:36:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:45] Speaker A: Could be huge. [00:36:46] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. I appreciate you coming in. It's been fantastic. I'm finally. You've come in, which is great. You can come in anytime and chat. If you ever wanted to come back, you're very, very welcome to come into IPL and we're gonna. I'm an 80s freak, so I'm gonna play some 80s music and I'm actually gonna play some Police now. We were talking about this last week. They do have a song called. And this is it. Thanks, Mark.